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	<title>Comments on: Will the government collapse over the Icesave agreement?</title>
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		<title>By: cammy</title>
		<link>http://icelandweatherreport.com/2009/09/will-the-government-collapse-over-the-icesave-agreement.html/comment-page-1#comment-9736</link>
		<dc:creator>cammy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 09:44:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I agree that there is over representation at Westminster from Scotland and specifically Scottish MP&#039;s voting on English only matters is wrong when Scotland has a devolved Parliament for Scottish matters. However eas been said that has been to Labour&#039;s favor so there has been no rush to fix that anomoly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that there is over representation at Westminster from Scotland and specifically Scottish MP&#8217;s voting on English only matters is wrong when Scotland has a devolved Parliament for Scottish matters. However eas been said that has been to Labour&#8217;s favor so there has been no rush to fix that anomoly.</p>
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		<title>By: cammy</title>
		<link>http://icelandweatherreport.com/2009/09/will-the-government-collapse-over-the-icesave-agreement.html/comment-page-1#comment-9734</link>
		<dc:creator>cammy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 08:49:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>All the banks I assume paid their corporation tax to London, if they were Scottish in anything other than name then clearly they would be paying tax to Edinburgh(obviously not possible). Therefore I think its a little bit disingenious to imply that they are Scottish when they fail but are British when they produce income...These are clearly ALL British institutions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All the banks I assume paid their corporation tax to London, if they were Scottish in anything other than name then clearly they would be paying tax to Edinburgh(obviously not possible). Therefore I think its a little bit disingenious to imply that they are Scottish when they fail but are British when they produce income&#8230;These are clearly ALL British institutions.</p>
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		<title>By: Bromley86</title>
		<link>http://icelandweatherreport.com/2009/09/will-the-government-collapse-over-the-icesave-agreement.html/comment-page-1#comment-9729</link>
		<dc:creator>Bromley86</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Oct 2009 20:38:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://icelandweatherreport.com/?p=2708#comment-9729</guid>
		<description>&gt;but it is true that currently there are 72 Scots MPs,

Not that it&#039;s important, but this does not appear to be the case.  A source other than Wiki:

&quot;Currently, out of 646 MPs overall, 59 are Scottish - down from the 72 before the Scottish Parliament was created.&quot;
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/wales/1560567/Scottish-MPs-influence-at-Westminster-unfair.html#

However, it does go on to say:
&quot;But the IPPR report, entitled The End of the Union?, said &quot;they are still over-represented compared to England&quot;.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;but it is true that currently there are 72 Scots MPs,</p>
<p>Not that it&#8217;s important, but this does not appear to be the case.  A source other than Wiki:</p>
<p>&#8220;Currently, out of 646 MPs overall, 59 are Scottish &#8211; down from the 72 before the Scottish Parliament was created.&#8221;<br />
<a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/wales/1560567/Scottish-MPs-influence-at-Westminster-unfair.html#"  rel="nofollow">http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/wales/1560567/Scottish-MPs-influence-at-Westminster-unfair.html#</a></p>
<p>However, it does go on to say:<br />
&#8220;But the IPPR report, entitled The End of the Union?, said &#8220;they are still over-represented compared to England&#8221;.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://icelandweatherreport.com/2009/09/will-the-government-collapse-over-the-icesave-agreement.html/comment-page-1#comment-9706</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 22:56:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://icelandweatherreport.com/?p=2708#comment-9706</guid>
		<description>Re the Scottish banks debate

Bromley is right, but it is true that currently there are 72 Scots MPs, and they do make up a significant part or the Labour majority.  However, though RBS and Bank of Scotland were largely Scottish banks, RBS had previously taken over National Westminister, the largest &#039;English&#039; bank, and BoS had merged with Halifax, the 2nd largest &#039;English&#039; building society, prior to the meltdown.  RBS ran into trouble when it bought ABN Amro - a Dutch bank - while the blame over HBOS was in large part down to commercial loans made by the Bank of Scotland throughout the UK as well as Halifax having picked up a large chunk of dud securitised mortgages from the US.

Again, Bromley is right, there was relatively little concern over whether they were &#039;Scottish&#039; or &#039;English&#039; banks, except as a swipe at the governing Scottish National Party on the grounds that - if like Iceland, it was independent - then Scotland would not have been able to save them.  

Overall, while there was some regional politicking over the bailouts, the main purpose was to save the City of London from the collapse of the financial sector.  The Scottish financial sector - which includes a lot of insurance companies which were not heavily involved as far as we know - was not really directly involved in the trading activities which were responsible.

A relatively small Scottish Building Society - the Dunfermline - has also failed, but Clydesdale Bank - owned by Australians and the third &#039;issuing&#039; bank here - seems to be doing ok, as is the much smaller Airdrie Savings Bank, though there have been rumours.  Oh, and the Credit Unions (which I&#039;m involved with) are doing ok too.  Nationwide Building Society - which is the biggest in the UK, and still a mutual, and also very big in Scotland, and the Co-operative Bank (also UK wide, and big in Scotland) are in good shape (tho Nationwide&#039;s accounts show that their member&#039;s equity has been nearly wiped out by the government encouraged acquisition of the failing Britannia Building Society just before the big crunch/kreppa).

It is also true that the Tories, perhaps motivated by the regional politics, were against much of the bailout.  

As for the oil, there is still plenty &#039;out there&#039; especially off Scotland, but oil politics have died down.   While there is some English resentment of Scotland, the main impetus for Scottish independence comes from Scotland.

As for the main controversy, I think it inevitable that Iceland will accept the Icesave &#039;deal&#039;, and that the Committee will not accept the amendments made in the Icelandic Althing.    It is not a good position to be in;  but Iceland needs foreign currency and access to the global trading system more than anyone outside needs what Iceland can offer.  

It seems that the only jobs going in Iceland just now are for currency enforcers - I wonder what the ordinary Icelander thinks of those who will take such jobs.

Icelanders may not be aware that many many depositors - charities, businesses, local authorities - have no recourse even under the Icesave &#039;deal&#039; - our local council is out £2.5 million.    The Icesave deal will at most slowly pay back the UK and Dutch governments for money they have already paid out to the individual depositors under guarantee - it&#039;s not quite like they are wanting money for nothing!   

The fact is that there were more (or at least a similar number of) individual foreign depositors in Icesave than there are people in Iceland, who thought their money was guaranteed - and who have at least lost the interest they were expecting.    Yes, they were protected by their governments - and fellow taxpayers - and Icelanders may feel that they can&#039;t afford to pay it back, on top of what they owe individually.   But it is fairly clear that the money did indeed go to Iceland, and some Icelanders, and that the Icelandic government failed - not alone by any means - to regulate their banks as they had agreed to do.   If Iceland fails to agree an Icesave deal, it is no more fair on UK and Dutch taxpayers than agreeing would be on Icelandic taxpayers.    (And while the burden may seem disproportionate per person, don&#039;t forget that UK taxpayers (and probably Dutch) have a pretty huge set of obligations to pay off themselves anyway - the estimated £300 billion in the UK is about £5k per head, while the Icesave deal will cost Iceland about £10k per head.  Supposedly, and for a number of years, Icelanders have had a per capita GDP greater than the UK by something more than £5000 per person per year.  So who is in better shape to pay?)

 Well, perhaps the Norwegians - but at least with the Dutch, UK and IMF you know the main agenda is to get the money back.   History is not an issue...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re the Scottish banks debate</p>
<p>Bromley is right, but it is true that currently there are 72 Scots MPs, and they do make up a significant part or the Labour majority.  However, though RBS and Bank of Scotland were largely Scottish banks, RBS had previously taken over National Westminister, the largest &#8216;English&#8217; bank, and BoS had merged with Halifax, the 2nd largest &#8216;English&#8217; building society, prior to the meltdown.  RBS ran into trouble when it bought ABN Amro &#8211; a Dutch bank &#8211; while the blame over HBOS was in large part down to commercial loans made by the Bank of Scotland throughout the UK as well as Halifax having picked up a large chunk of dud securitised mortgages from the US.</p>
<p>Again, Bromley is right, there was relatively little concern over whether they were &#8216;Scottish&#8217; or &#8216;English&#8217; banks, except as a swipe at the governing Scottish National Party on the grounds that &#8211; if like Iceland, it was independent &#8211; then Scotland would not have been able to save them.  </p>
<p>Overall, while there was some regional politicking over the bailouts, the main purpose was to save the City of London from the collapse of the financial sector.  The Scottish financial sector &#8211; which includes a lot of insurance companies which were not heavily involved as far as we know &#8211; was not really directly involved in the trading activities which were responsible.</p>
<p>A relatively small Scottish Building Society &#8211; the Dunfermline &#8211; has also failed, but Clydesdale Bank &#8211; owned by Australians and the third &#8216;issuing&#8217; bank here &#8211; seems to be doing ok, as is the much smaller Airdrie Savings Bank, though there have been rumours.  Oh, and the Credit Unions (which I&#8217;m involved with) are doing ok too.  Nationwide Building Society &#8211; which is the biggest in the UK, and still a mutual, and also very big in Scotland, and the Co-operative Bank (also UK wide, and big in Scotland) are in good shape (tho Nationwide&#8217;s accounts show that their member&#8217;s equity has been nearly wiped out by the government encouraged acquisition of the failing Britannia Building Society just before the big crunch/kreppa).</p>
<p>It is also true that the Tories, perhaps motivated by the regional politics, were against much of the bailout.  </p>
<p>As for the oil, there is still plenty &#8216;out there&#8217; especially off Scotland, but oil politics have died down.   While there is some English resentment of Scotland, the main impetus for Scottish independence comes from Scotland.</p>
<p>As for the main controversy, I think it inevitable that Iceland will accept the Icesave &#8216;deal&#8217;, and that the Committee will not accept the amendments made in the Icelandic Althing.    It is not a good position to be in;  but Iceland needs foreign currency and access to the global trading system more than anyone outside needs what Iceland can offer.  </p>
<p>It seems that the only jobs going in Iceland just now are for currency enforcers &#8211; I wonder what the ordinary Icelander thinks of those who will take such jobs.</p>
<p>Icelanders may not be aware that many many depositors &#8211; charities, businesses, local authorities &#8211; have no recourse even under the Icesave &#8216;deal&#8217; &#8211; our local council is out £2.5 million.    The Icesave deal will at most slowly pay back the UK and Dutch governments for money they have already paid out to the individual depositors under guarantee &#8211; it&#8217;s not quite like they are wanting money for nothing!   </p>
<p>The fact is that there were more (or at least a similar number of) individual foreign depositors in Icesave than there are people in Iceland, who thought their money was guaranteed &#8211; and who have at least lost the interest they were expecting.    Yes, they were protected by their governments &#8211; and fellow taxpayers &#8211; and Icelanders may feel that they can&#8217;t afford to pay it back, on top of what they owe individually.   But it is fairly clear that the money did indeed go to Iceland, and some Icelanders, and that the Icelandic government failed &#8211; not alone by any means &#8211; to regulate their banks as they had agreed to do.   If Iceland fails to agree an Icesave deal, it is no more fair on UK and Dutch taxpayers than agreeing would be on Icelandic taxpayers.    (And while the burden may seem disproportionate per person, don&#8217;t forget that UK taxpayers (and probably Dutch) have a pretty huge set of obligations to pay off themselves anyway &#8211; the estimated £300 billion in the UK is about £5k per head, while the Icesave deal will cost Iceland about £10k per head.  Supposedly, and for a number of years, Icelanders have had a per capita GDP greater than the UK by something more than £5000 per person per year.  So who is in better shape to pay?)</p>
<p> Well, perhaps the Norwegians &#8211; but at least with the Dutch, UK and IMF you know the main agenda is to get the money back.   History is not an issue&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Great Eastern</title>
		<link>http://icelandweatherreport.com/2009/09/will-the-government-collapse-over-the-icesave-agreement.html/comment-page-1#comment-9694</link>
		<dc:creator>Great Eastern</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 13:15:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://icelandweatherreport.com/?p=2708#comment-9694</guid>
		<description>What icelanders need is to face the devil. 
Face the fact that Britain and Holland are the largest trading partners ( am I wrong may be ?)
Face the fact of trading blockade, freezing of assets abroad, whatever.
If it happens then it will hurt. Escpecialy in the beginning. But it will preserve some kind of independence.  And pride. And self respect.  Money will find their way around cause they always do.  After all nothing consolidates a nation that well as a foreign enemy(ies).  Sad but true. 
Beware of the dark side though: witch hunting will flourish if you go that way. 
All this happened before. My native post Soviet country including. 
Actually, the transformation Iceland took in front of my eyes from year arround 2000 was sort of deja vu. Privatization of state property ( einkavæðing) Oh yeaaah, that sweat word &quot;own.&quot; Pundit schemes.  I&#039;ve seen it before. Search for truth, trials including. The end result was no result. Not a single man charged and found guilty. 
I can safely bet Eva Joly and co. will deliver result equal to exactly zero.  If not then icelanders do have some strong communal values after all.  But well, too many people are actually well doing specially in crisis.  So my bet stands - nil result.

My best wishes to all icelanders. I&#039;d like to see you preserving some pride anyway. Even at the expense of loosing those damned foreign assets that mosy of you do not own nor care anyway!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What icelanders need is to face the devil.<br />
Face the fact that Britain and Holland are the largest trading partners ( am I wrong may be ?)<br />
Face the fact of trading blockade, freezing of assets abroad, whatever.<br />
If it happens then it will hurt. Escpecialy in the beginning. But it will preserve some kind of independence.  And pride. And self respect.  Money will find their way around cause they always do.  After all nothing consolidates a nation that well as a foreign enemy(ies).  Sad but true.<br />
Beware of the dark side though: witch hunting will flourish if you go that way.<br />
All this happened before. My native post Soviet country including.<br />
Actually, the transformation Iceland took in front of my eyes from year arround 2000 was sort of deja vu. Privatization of state property ( einkavæðing) Oh yeaaah, that sweat word &#8220;own.&#8221; Pundit schemes.  I&#8217;ve seen it before. Search for truth, trials including. The end result was no result. Not a single man charged and found guilty.<br />
I can safely bet Eva Joly and co. will deliver result equal to exactly zero.  If not then icelanders do have some strong communal values after all.  But well, too many people are actually well doing specially in crisis.  So my bet stands &#8211; nil result.</p>
<p>My best wishes to all icelanders. I&#8217;d like to see you preserving some pride anyway. Even at the expense of loosing those damned foreign assets that mosy of you do not own nor care anyway!</p>
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		<title>By: Bromley86</title>
		<link>http://icelandweatherreport.com/2009/09/will-the-government-collapse-over-the-icesave-agreement.html/comment-page-1#comment-9693</link>
		<dc:creator>Bromley86</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 13:09:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://icelandweatherreport.com/?p=2708#comment-9693</guid>
		<description>&gt;Is there a connection…?

Unlikely.  If those banks, especially the Scottish ones, had been allowed to fail then the whole UK banking system would have imploded and people would be sleeping on well-stuffed mattresses.

Also, and I may well be wrong here, but I think that Scottish constituencies have been brought roughly into line with English ones.

This refers to the boundry changes in 2005 to address the Scottish problem (--&gt; reduction in seats by 13 to 59).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Kingdom_Parliament_constituencies

This has all the constituencies listed with size.  I haven&#039;t averaged them, but the Scottish ones look similar to me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constituencies_in_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;Is there a connection…?</p>
<p>Unlikely.  If those banks, especially the Scottish ones, had been allowed to fail then the whole UK banking system would have imploded and people would be sleeping on well-stuffed mattresses.</p>
<p>Also, and I may well be wrong here, but I think that Scottish constituencies have been brought roughly into line with English ones.</p>
<p>This refers to the boundry changes in 2005 to address the Scottish problem (&#8211;&gt; reduction in seats by 13 to 59).<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Kingdom_Parliament_constituencies"  rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Kingdom_Parliament_constituencies</a></p>
<p>This has all the constituencies listed with size.  I haven&#8217;t averaged them, but the Scottish ones look similar to me.<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constituencies_in_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election"  rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constituencies_in_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://icelandweatherreport.com/2009/09/will-the-government-collapse-over-the-icesave-agreement.html/comment-page-1#comment-9686</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 01:42:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://icelandweatherreport.com/?p=2708#comment-9686</guid>
		<description>Cammy asked:

&#039;Were all the failing banks/building societies in the UK who were bailed out actually Scottish&#039;

Two of the biggest bail-outs went to Scottish banks - the Royal Bank of Scotland and the Halifax Bank of Scotland (HBoS) consortium. HBoS has now been merged at gunpoint with the London-based Lloyds TSB. Between them they got about £37 billion from the taxpayer. The third big bail-out went to Northern Rock based in Tyneside which gobbled up another £27 billion. 

Scotland and the North East of England are the bedrock of Labour&#039;s vote and return a disproportionate number of MPs to the House of Commons. Is there a connection...?

Mike.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cammy asked:</p>
<p>&#8216;Were all the failing banks/building societies in the UK who were bailed out actually Scottish&#8217;</p>
<p>Two of the biggest bail-outs went to Scottish banks &#8211; the Royal Bank of Scotland and the Halifax Bank of Scotland (HBoS) consortium. HBoS has now been merged at gunpoint with the London-based Lloyds TSB. Between them they got about £37 billion from the taxpayer. The third big bail-out went to Northern Rock based in Tyneside which gobbled up another £27 billion. </p>
<p>Scotland and the North East of England are the bedrock of Labour&#8217;s vote and return a disproportionate number of MPs to the House of Commons. Is there a connection&#8230;?</p>
<p>Mike.</p>
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		<title>By: Knute Rife</title>
		<link>http://icelandweatherreport.com/2009/09/will-the-government-collapse-over-the-icesave-agreement.html/comment-page-1#comment-9685</link>
		<dc:creator>Knute Rife</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Oct 2009 20:30:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://icelandweatherreport.com/?p=2708#comment-9685</guid>
		<description>Another point.  If there&#039;s one thing we here in the US can tell you about trying to figure out why politicians are doing a particular thing, it&#039;s &quot;follow the money.&quot;  If Norway puts money on the table, but the government keeps chasing IMF funding, I guarantee someone has a side deal going down.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another point.  If there&#8217;s one thing we here in the US can tell you about trying to figure out why politicians are doing a particular thing, it&#8217;s &#8220;follow the money.&#8221;  If Norway puts money on the table, but the government keeps chasing IMF funding, I guarantee someone has a side deal going down.</p>
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		<title>By: Knute Rife</title>
		<link>http://icelandweatherreport.com/2009/09/will-the-government-collapse-over-the-icesave-agreement.html/comment-page-1#comment-9684</link>
		<dc:creator>Knute Rife</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Oct 2009 20:12:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Even with a 1262 rider, a Norwegian offer would be preferable to the Anglo-EU-IMF cabal.  Ask any non-G20 that&#039;s ever had to deal with the IMF.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even with a 1262 rider, a Norwegian offer would be preferable to the Anglo-EU-IMF cabal.  Ask any non-G20 that&#8217;s ever had to deal with the IMF.</p>
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		<title>By: Gunnar D</title>
		<link>http://icelandweatherreport.com/2009/09/will-the-government-collapse-over-the-icesave-agreement.html/comment-page-1#comment-9683</link>
		<dc:creator>Gunnar D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Oct 2009 18:15:30 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Norwegians are only too pleased if told to go to Hell .. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell,_Norway)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Norwegians are only too pleased if told to go to Hell .. (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell,_Norway"  rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell,_Norway</a>)</p>
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